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Episode 5: Making Disciples of The Nations

Speaker: Dave Pellowe • Recorded: 30 August 2025 at CAS Moree 2025

Dave Pellowe argues that Christians must engage with politics, not shy away from it, because faith inevitably intersects with public life. He outlines key battlegrounds — from “woke” ideology and conversion-therapy laws to religious freedom erosion and state paternalism — and uses the example of Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego to remind believers that loyalty to Christ may require standing firm in culture.

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My topic right now is to persuade you that politics belongs in the church and the Church belongs in politics. I’m not talking about the institutional church; I’m talking about the people of God, the saints of God, the people Jesus commissioned to go into all the world and make disciples of all men, teaching them to obey everything that I command, baptising them in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, and the rest of it.

But the important part pertinent to this debate — the part that people don’t get — is that we actually have to teach unbelievers what Jesus said. I don’t know if you know this, but discipleship around the world frequently takes place before conversion, and conversion actually results from discipleship.

There are many ministries I know of where they go in and they teach men, “Don’t beat up your wives,” and the men say, “I always wanted to be a good husband. Why didn’t anybody tell me that before?”

I’m being a bit simplistic — I don’t mean to be funny — but when God led Israel out of Egypt, He literally taught them how not to be pagan. He taught them things like, “The act of marriage isn’t designed for animals or your parents. It’s just between you and your wife.” Horrible stuff we know not to do. God had to teach the Israelites:

“Don’t be like the nations you’ve come out of. Don’t do all of those things.”

Now, one of the places I want to start is with the common arguments against Christians being involved in politics, because that’s false teaching. They’ve simply got it wrong. To be fair, most of them mean well, but they’re still getting things wrong.

Who’s heard this one:

“Jesus was known for what He stood for, not what He stood against”?

Has anybody heard that one? There are a few people. Everybody who’s involved in politics has heard that one before. It’s like, haven’t you read the Scriptures? Jesus was against so much. And, “Jesus was always nice.” What? No, He really, really wasn’t. And have you read any of the prophets — those people of God who were called to speak God’s Word to the government, to the king? Those guys were pretty direct sometimes.

But this one is one of the pearlers:

“Render unto Caesar what is Caesar’s and unto God what is God’s.”

Look, there’s a really great exegesis to do on this which explains exactly what that means. What it does not mean is that part of creation and part of this world doesn’t belong to God. It does not mean God is not interested in righteousness and justice in government. It does not mean that God is Lord of most but not the public square.

Isn’t that obvious when you think about it like that?

There’s this really great Dutch theologian — a Reformed theologian, I believe — and he was also a Dutch prime minister. So for a start, here we see the mingling of church and state because the church must be in the world. We’re not of the world, but we must be involved. There is no part where God said to hide our light and make our salt bland. He said our salt needs to be tasty everywhere; our light needs to be displayed everywhere, especially in public.

Abraham Kuyper said:

“There is not a square inch in the whole domain of our human existence over which Christ, who is sovereign over all, does not cry, ‘Mine!’”

So, “Render unto Caesar that which is Caesar’s and unto God that which is God’s.” Was Jesus saying government doesn’t belong to God? No. Of course not.

Government and public policy and legislation — every legislator ever, every government, every governor, every politician and councillor — will answer to God for the decisions they’ve made. It’s the whole premise of the Magna Carta. The king used to take life at whim because he felt like it. His word was law, and therefore whatever he did was moral.

Well, part of the Magna Carta said, “Actually, King, the fact that you believe you have a divine authority to rule means there is an authority higher than yours who has authorised you, and you will give account to Him either in this life or the next. And you aren’t Him.”

So His law is the one we must submit to, and you also must submit to. That’s when parliamentary systems were introduced in England, basically saying there is actually a degree of accountability. We went from absolute monarchy to constitutional monarchies.

So what kind of government does God want? What is He interested in? Is He interested in democracy? In monarchy? Does He prefer dictatorship? Does He prefer ecclesiocracy, where institutional churches are in charge of the government?

Well, the answer to all of the above is “no”.

What God is interested in is justice. It doesn’t matter which form of government you have; there is no form of government that is trustworthy or safe if the people wielding authority are not moral and virtuous and righteous.

President John Adams, second president of the United States of America, wrote to the Massachusetts militia that “our Constitution” — and by that he meant the American Constitution, which is easily synonymous with self-government democracy — “was made for a moral and religious people, and it is wholly unsuitable to the government of any other.”

Democracy is not for atheists. Democracy is not for Muslims — check out the Middle East. Democracy was made by and for Christian populations who can bind themselves with character and virtue, care of their Christianity, care of their care for what God thinks.

In the same letter, John Adams wrote that constitutions are incapable of restraining wicked people, and a constitution could restrain a wicked person no sooner than a net could restrain a whale.

People — even Christians — who believe, “If we just fix the Constitution and the oaths of office and (yada yada yada, insert trivial detail here), then Australia will be made right”.

Wrong! Because no Constitution can fix an immoral people. Who can make an immoral people moral? Jesus alone. Who are Jesus’s messengers on this earth? The local church.

We preach righteousness because it is good for people, because righteousness and virtue and Christianity, according and given by the Moral Law Giver, Almighty God, is the only way that we can save democracy. Because a corrupt voter will make a corrupt democracy a tyranny. Whether the ruler is one man or twenty-six million voters, the hearts of the people need to be righteous if you want righteous government.

And so the solution to Australia’s pride-in-sin parades is not different laws, it’s repentance of pride in sin. This is so simple, and you — the saints who are equipped for the work of the ministry — are the people who can disciple Australians to lead us to that change. Let me promise you, it’s not going to happen in one election cycle.

We need a reformation of heart and mind, and brothers and sisters, that needs to start in the church, where we will face ridicule and hate from — as Stephen put it — hate from people we want to like us, for saying what Jesus says about debated issues. So what Jesus wants in government of any kind, he has told you: “O man, what is good, and what the Lord really wants from you.” He wants you to carry out justice, to love faithfulness, and to live obediently before your God.

That is politics. That is the gospel — but it is the kingdom of God made manifest in public. And in Isaiah he says, “Learn to do what is right, promote justice, give the oppressed reason to celebrate.” Man alive, if there is an ethos, a reason to exist for Christians in the public square, it is this: to give the oppressed reason to celebrate.

That is what Jesus said when he explained the good news. And Isaiah finishes, “Take up the cause of the orphan, defend the rights of the widow.” Let me tell you here a little interpretation on this passage: that politics isn’t about you.

It’s not about your disposable income. It’s not about your cost of living. It’s not about new change rooms for your sports club. It’s justice and the rights of those who are oppressed — the cause of the orphan and the widow — those people. We vote because we love our neighbours, not because we want to make our own lives better. If we did have an absolute monarchy, if there were a king and his motivation for every governing decision he made was his selfish benefit, his own comfort, and his retirement plan, we would think that king wicked and selfish.

The same for us. Our voting decisions are our exercise of government and authority, and so we must be highly motivated by love of neighbour, not an accumulation of power. Proverbs 31:8–9 — the references to the virtuous woman start at verse ten, but the first part of that chapter is all about government, how to be a king, how to be responsible — and it says in verses eight and nine: “Open your mouth.” It’s not okay to stay silent; it’s not okay to just pray. Open your mouth on behalf of those unable to speak.

If that’s not a reference to the unborn child-sacrifice industry in Australia — open your mouth on behalf of those unable to speak. “For the legal rights of all the dying, open your mouth, judge in righteousness, and plead the cause of the poor and needy.”

Never let anyone tell you “judge not,” because those are the two words beginning a whole chapter instructing us how to judge. Read Matthew chapter 7 from beginning to end and put Matthew 7:1 in the whole context.

Verses soon after say, “Don’t give what is holy to dogs; don’t throw your pearls before swine.” Who are the pearls and the swine? Jesus expected you to judge the difference between people who will receive and accept wisdom and righteousness and his word, and those people for whom it is completely wasted. He literally taught us how to judge people.

The warning at the beginning — “judge not” — is “don’t have a different standard for them than yourself.” You had better be able to pass the same judgment you offer to others. And dear God help us to do that — to actually say, “Here is how I’ve repented and become obedient to the cross, and now I think that’s the best thing for your life too.” It is a qualification on how to judge, and very clear here.

Other Scriptures say, “The Lord says, do what is just and right, deliver those who have been robbed from those who oppress them. Do not exploit or mistreat resident foreigners who live in your land, children who have no fathers or widows. Do not kill innocent people in this land.”

Matthew chapter 5 — the Sermon on the Mount. One New South Wales politician recently tried to flex his theological credentials, and he doesn’t believe Jesus is God, and he thought that Matthew chapter 5 — the whole Sermon on the Mount — essentially means we should be nice to everybody. But Jesus said:

“You are the salt of the earth, but if salt loses its flavour, how can it be made salty again? You are the light of the world. People do not light a lamp and put it under a basket, but on a lampstand. In the same way, let your light shine before people.”

This is not just talking about the four walls of the church and your private lives, but it is talking about every environment we find ourselves in. We must be flavouring those environments. Do you know the properties of salt?

Well, certainly in this day, salt was used instead of refrigerators to stop flesh rotting, to stop the corruption of meat. Salt is a preservative. It is also curative. If you have an open wound, one of the healthiest things you can do is swim in the sea and let the seawater get into it. Salt water is healing. It brings healing, and you know what? It might even sting a little bit at first.

Has anybody had an open wound in the sea? That sting you get from salt water? Sometimes the love of God is not always without correction, without a little bit of discomfort, but it is good for you. There are so many other things in a study of salt that are important, but bottom line: we have to change our environment. We have to make it better. We have to prevent decay and corruption.

And, of course, light illuminates. Light reveals. Light chases away darkness, repels darkness.

Luke — did I jump past one? There we go. Here is the good news, the gospel. One of the things I hear from pastors sometimes, who have got this wrong, is they say, “Oh, we do not talk about politics because we are called to preach the gospel.” And I have to respectfully say that they are two sides of the same coin.

Here is what Jesus defined the gospel as — which means “good news”: “The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he has anointed me to proclaim good news to the poor. He sent me to proclaim release to the captives and the regaining of sight to the blind, to set free those who are oppressed, to proclaim the year of the Lord’s favour” — give the oppressed reason to celebrate. Remember that verse? That is the good news.

And Ephesians five, which we spoke from a little bit this morning at the men’s breakfast — this is again you, the light of the world, letting your light shine, and here is what it does. And this looks to me a lot like politics.

“Let nobody deceive you with empty words.” Come election time, remember that. Let nobody deceive you with empty words.

Like, “Abortion is not a federal issue; it is just a state issue.” Empty words. Guess who pays for it? The federal government — the taxpayer. You and I are forced to subsidise the child sacrifice industry. Is that okay with you? It is a federal election issue. Every federal candidate, in my opinion, must be made to swear to defund abortion. It is just a deal-breaker. If there is one candidate from any party who will promise to do that, given the opportunity to vote that way, they are the best candidate for the job, in my opinion.

Let nobody deceive you with empty words. I am sorry to get off on that little tangent.

“Do not participate in the unfruitful deeds of darkness” — such as affirmation of delusion — “but rather expose them.” We are truth-tellers, light-bringers. “For the things they do in secret are shameful even to mention.”

“So also faith, if it does not have works, is dead being by itself.” This is James chapter two. “But someone will say, ‘You have faith and I have works.’ Well, show me your faith without works, and I will show you my faith by my works.”

I love people who pray for righteousness in government. We need intercession and tears of repentance on behalf of our nation. We have much spiritual warfare to do on behalf of this nation, but it is not enough by itself. Works must follow. Good works. Good religion must follow.

God did not give you a shovel so you could lean on it and pray for a hole. God has given you the tools to achieve righteousness in this nation — the preaching of the gospel, the ministry of the local church, and a pluralistic, liberal, inclusive democracy while it lasts. And it is rapidly eroding.

And the parable of the Good Samaritan is exactly what the Holy Spirit preached to me the day he brought me into this ministry, when I was frustrated with people who were praying for a hole while leaning on a shovel. Praying for righteous government while making excuses for not volunteering on election day.

Let me tell you: you should not be taking any how-to-vote cards. You should not be letting anybody tell you how to vote. You should be choosing yourself long before election day.

You should have a list — in consultation, not being an island or isolated — but in consultation with prayer to Jesus and the Holy Spirit for wisdom, with the Word of God as your authority on debatable issues, and in conversation with your pastor or priest and fellow mature Christian believers, you should be examining the candidates in your region. As well as the resources sent to you by the Australian Christian Lobby and Christian political parties — and, well, all political parties. Let us consider the information they send you; weigh it up. But certainly fellow Christians in organisations and in your local community are going to be sources of information so you can weigh the candidates.

Even have a coffee with them, or send an email and ask them questions, because the issues that are breaking God’s heart at election time are not necessarily the ones the media or politicians are concerned about. They will misdirect from the things that are inconvenient for them to confront.

The reason the Liberal Party did not ask the question about the funding of abortions — to the baby bonuses and paid parental leave — is because they are just as complicit in perpetuating it when they are in government and doing nothing about it. There is no way they could ask that question because they are hypocrites if they do.

We need to look for candidates who will defend life, defend the sanctity of life, and defend the things that God said are absolute. Abortion is such an important issue. I am going to segue for another thirty seconds to give you an important fact about it.

The top three causes of death in this nation, according to the Australian Bureau of Statistics, are heart disease — all kinds of heart disease — cancer — all kinds of cancer — and dementia — all kinds of dementia. Those three categories of illness combined take fewer Australian lives every year than abortion.

We deliberately kill, and subsidise with taxpayer funds, the sacrifice — the clinical killing — of Australian citizens. They are not given official citizenship until they are outside the womb, but they are Australians. They are living humans, alive and conceived here in this nation. This is a national tragedy that we must get angry about and active about, spiritually warring and influential in the public square.

Our salt has to change the environment. Our light has to reveal the evil and expel the darkness. We have to leave this environment better than we found it. Brothers and sisters, this is at least a fifty-year campaign to change the culture of this nation — to not be proud of profaning marriage and life.

But a Samaritan who was travelling came to where the injured man was, and when he saw him he felt compassion for him. He went up to him and bandaged his wounds, pouring olive oil and wine on them. Then he put him on his own animal, brought him to an inn, and took care of him. The next day he took out two silver coins and gave them to the innkeeper, saying, “Take care of him, and whatever else you spend, I will repay you when I come back this way.”

The Good Samaritan was not NRMA. He was not in the ministry of roadside assistance. He allowed himself — that is funny, by the way — he allowed himself to be inconvenienced for an opportunity to love that he did not feel called to.

I do not think many of you today are called to politics. You are called to what you are already doing on your mission from God. But politics is an opportunity for God to interrupt you and inconvenience you, to love your neighbour.

I exhort you to the opportunity to be inconvenienced. Invest your time, invest your effort, invest your resources, and take a long-term interest in the outcome and the welfare of twenty-six, nearly twenty-seven million Australians — we are nearly up to that. That is our opportunity. It is just our Christian duty. It is just basic. It is just “love your neighbour.”

And so never let anybody tell you that religion and politics do not mix, because they wish — they wish — that their evil could continue in the darkness. That is exactly what John 3:20–21 says. Yes, verse sixteen is lovely: “For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.” John 3:17 is also lovely: “For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through him might be saved.”

But Jesus went on, in preaching the gospel, to say that the reason anybody who has not accepted the Son is already condemned. Jesus did not condemn you. Christians did not condemn you. That is the condition Jesus and Christians find you in — and love you enough to warn you about. You are condemned, and you need to repent, and you need a Saviour.

And Jesus explained the reason people say no is because they hate the light, because their deeds were evil, and the last thing they wanted was their evil deeds exposed.

When you get involved in politics, you are not going to be liked. You are going to be hated. You are going to be thrown into the fiery furnace, and you will get a chance to say, “We are not answering to you, O king. We will not bow down to your idol. We will serve the Lord our God because he can save us — and even if he does not, we will serve him, and we will never bow down.” That is the Christian opportunity for the gospel to shine in the public square.

Politics and Christianity are naturally associated!

Think about it this simply: politics is all about our horizontal relationships — how we interrelate and have community with each other. Religion is all about our vertical relationship with God, and our horizontal relationships with each other. Here is how church and state are separated: the state has nothing to say, rightfully or validly, about our relationship with God. God has everything to say, rightfully and validly, about our relationship with each other. It is a one-way relationship.

Martin Luther King said:

“The Church must be reminded that it is neither the master nor the servant of the state; it is the conscience of the state.”

We are not trying to take over the government. We are just trying to have our vote and have our democratic participation like everybody else. And nobody is imposing anything on anybody — unless that is literally how democracy works — majority rules. And so bring the best that the Word of God has to say to the public debate and let the truth prevail.

That is all we are asking for — the same rights and opportunity as Marxists and environmentalists and everybody else, all the unionists and everybody who gets a say and a lobby and a representation. Fantastic! We are not trying to diminish that at all. But God has really important things to say, and His policies are the best for the flourishing of our nation.

For anybody to read all of these scriptures and say God is not interested in government, and Christians should not be influential in government, seems to me to be more eisegesis than exegesis — more reading into the scriptures what we wish they said, rather than pulling the truth out of them that is there to help us and improve us.